2013馬英九總統接受「華盛頓郵報」（The Washington Post）專訪中英文全文

英文：
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/full-transcript-interview-with-taiwanese-president-ma-ying-jeou/2013/10/24/e430ceb0-3ce0-11e3-b6a9-da62c264f40e_story.html

中文：
http://www.president.gov.tw/Default.aspx?tabid=131&itemid=31082&rmid=514

Full transcript: 

Interview with Taiwanese president Ma Ying-jeou

By Washington Post, Friday, October 25, 10:03 AM

Taiwanese President Ma Ying-jeou outlined on Thursday plans to further improve ties with mainland China during his final three years in office and rebutted criticism that he is giving up too much to Beijing in return for too little.

What follows is a transcript of Ma’s Oct. 24 interview with William Wan of The Washington Post at the presidential office in Taipei. The transcript was translated from Mandarin and compiled by the Office of the President, which simplified the question-posing portions for brevity.

Washington Post: Earlier this month, the leader of mainland China, Xi Jinping, stated that the political divide must step-by-step reach a final resolution and cannot be passed from generation to generation. What do you believe this means?

President Ma: At an APEC meeting, mainland Chinese leader Mr. Xi Jinping did say that the cross-strait division cannot be handed off to subsequent generations to handle. Perhaps he meant that he hopes that political issues can be discussed at an early date. Actually, since I took office and began to improve cross-strait relations, among the political, economic, and other matters the two sides have dealt with, the political ones can be divided into high-level and low-level issues. High-level issues include the “one China” principle, on which the two sides came to a consensus in 1992, that is, “one China, respective interpretations.”

As to low-level matters, in the past five years we have signed 19 agreements, some of which are politically very sensitive. For example, the Cross-Strait Agreement on Joint Crime-fighting and Judicial Mutual Assistance we signed in 2009 concerns the two sides’ exercise of public authority and jurisdiction, which is clearly politically sensitive. But operations taking place under it have gone well for four years now. While the agreement concerns sensitive topics, the agreement itself is neutral. What is more, thanks to this agreement, the two sides have arrested over 5,000 criminals.

The agreement on the establishment of representative offices in each other’s territory that we are now negotiating is similar in that it is also politically very sensitive, but the institutions themselves are neutral. So it is not the case that we are deliberately evading political questions. Our principle is to address pressing issues before less pressing ones, easy ones before difficult ones, and economic ones before political ones. It is not the case that we are only addressing economic issues and avoiding political ones. Where the time is ripe and the issue is pressing, we address these issues. But right now, we believe we should address the issue of establishing representative offices, as these can offer services and help to our people traveling, doing business, or studying in mainland China. So we are not avoiding such issues.

Washington Post: Is it possible that in your generation the two sides of the Taiwan Strait engage in political negotiations?

President Ma: The mainland hopes to discuss a cross-strait peace agreement. But our people are somewhat concerned that such talks would end up as a discussion about unification. So two years ago, when we first brought up this issue, we thought it would be best to first put it to a referendum to confirm that we had strong public support. If so, it would be easier to move on with discussions. Mainland China has brought up talking about mutual military confidence-building measures. This is also very sensitive. However, at this time, we have not reached consensus in Taiwan. Though we have seen continuing development in cross-strait relations, on this issue, perhaps there will be a time—when the issue is perhaps not so sensitive and when we have a consensus—at which point we would not rule out discussing it.

I want to stress that our cross-strait policy is to pursue peaceful cross-strait development and maintain the status quo of “no unification, no independence, and no use of force” under the framework of the ROC Constitution and the 1992 Consensus. In fact, over the past two decades, opinion polls have shown that around 80 percent of the people support the maintenance of the status quo of “no unification, no independence, and no use of force.” This closely reflects mainstream public opinion in Taiwan.

Washington Post: You mentioned that political negotiations require sufficient popular support. Do you believe that there is a possibility for leaders of the two sides of the Taiwan Strait to meet? At what kind of events? What conditions would have to be met?

President Ma: This question has come up a lot recently. My basic attitude is that for the leaders of the two sides to meet, the nation must require it, the people must support it, and the meeting should proceed in a dignified manner, with equal status for both sides.

Washington Post: If the leaders of the two sides were to meet, what would you hope to convey?

President Ma: We actually have many established channels through which we can communicate our ideas, including the Mainland Affairs Council, the Straits Exchange Foundation, and other agencies. This is much different from the past. Through these channels, we can indicate our positions to the mainland. Right now, we are implementing a raft of concrete measures. On the economic front, we must pass a trade in services agreement and a trade in goods agreement, as well as negotiate an agreement on representative offices. Then we will engage in a comprehensive review of the Act Governing Relations between the People of the Taiwan Area and the Mainland Area and related regulations to relax them so that they are more in line with recent trends. These are foundational matters for the cross-strait relationship. They are very important. These steps will make moving forward smoother.

All of this is just the official channels; more exist in the private sector. All sorts of discussions and forums are held frequently and participants exchange opinions on related issues. And so there is a great exchange of opinions going on between the two sides.

Washington Post: What message does the ROC government want to convey?

President Ma: For example, in late April, we hosted a gathering marking the 20th anniversary of the 1992 Koo-Wang Talks. Mr. Wang Daohan’s son came to Taiwan. At the gathering, I explained very clearly that, in accordance with our Constitution, we will not, either domestically or abroad, promote “two Chinas,” “one China, one Taiwan,” or “Taiwan independence.” These are not allowed by our Constitution. Moreover, in July, after I was re-elected as Chairman of the Kuomintang (KMT), Mr. Xi Jinping sent a message of congratulations to me in his capacity as General Secretary of the Communist Party of China. In my capacity as KMT Chairman, I sent a letter of thanks back to him, and I stressed that our achievements over the past five years were a realization of the 1992 Consensus. We also reiterate our basic cross-strait position at such events to show that our attitude has not changed and to let the mainland understand our basic principles in progressing with related work. These are the type of things we are always doing. This weekend, Honorary KMT Chairman Wu Po-hsiung will travel to the mainland to attend the Cross-Straits Economic Trade and Culture Forum. Prior to his departure, I exchanged opinions with him, and shared exactly what I have just told you.

Washington Post: Will the deepening of cross-strait relations affect Taiwan’s sovereignty?

President Ma: You just said that our improvement of relations with mainland China would undermine our independence and autonomy. This is a major misunderstanding, since the situation happens to be the reverse. Before I took office, Taiwan’s international participation was rather limited. After I took office, as we promoted improvement of the cross-strait relationship and signed one agreement after another, our international room for maneuver gradually expanded.

For example, in the second year of my first term, Taiwan was able to take part in the World Health Assembly (WHA) held by the World Health Organization (WHO). We did so as an observer under the name Chinese Taipei. This was 38 years after we had left the United Nations. We now have taken part in the WHA for five years in a row with no problems. Our relationship with the WHO is increasingly close and through this organization, our liaison with the health agencies of other countries has become closer.

The year after we first attended the WHA, we acceded to the Government Procurement Agreement, which is an agreement under the World Trade Organization. This allows us to take part alongside 41 other member states in government procurement.This is also something we could not do before.

Similarly, in September of this year, we took part in the Assembly of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). This was the first time we participated in ICAO since our departure from it 42 years ago. The improvement in cross-strait relations had a great deal to do with this.

All of what I have just mentioned pertains to our multilateral relations. In terms of bilateral relations, after we signed with mainland China the Cross-Straits Economic Cooperation Framework Agreement (ECFA) in June 2010, two months later in August Singapore expressed willingness to begin talks about signing an economic cooperation agreement, which is now nearing completion. In 2011, New Zealand also indicated that it wanted to sign an economic cooperation agreement with us. It was signed after the completion of negotiations in July of this year. We expect that it will soon be approved by our Legislative Yuan. Since we have signed the ECFA with mainland China, many countries have shown interest in holding talks with us in this area, including the European Parliament, which has passed a number of resolutions supporting the signing of such an agreement with us. We currently are holding such talks with a number of countries. From this it is evident that the improvement in our relationship with mainland China has not shrunk our international room for maneuver, it has actually expanded it. So, you just mentioned that some people think that after we improve relations with mainland China it will limit our independence and autonomy, but it happens to be the reverse.

In fact, our relationship with Japan is the same. The year after we signed the ECFA with mainland China, Japan signed an investment pact with us. Japan has already been investing in Taiwan for six decades; so, why did it suddenly want to sign an investment pact with us when it had never raised the issue before? Obviously because it has not yet signed a free trade agreement with mainland China, so via the investment pact signed with us, Japan can invest in Taiwan and sell its products on the mainland. This is beneficial to Japan. Examples such as these indicate that, as we have improved our relationship with mainland China, we have also bettered our international relations. In the past, these two conflicted in a vicious cycle. Now it has been changed into a virtuous cycle. I think that is quite evident.

In addition, five years ago when I took office, only 54 countries and territories afforded us landing-visa or visa-waiver treatment, but now that number has grown to 134. The reason that it is up by 80 over these years is that our improvement of cross-strait relations has facilitated peace in East Asia, causing countries to perceive the Republic of China as an asset, not a liability. Thus, they are happy to welcome our sophisticated citizens to visit them. These situations are all linked, not independent. So, the view that you just mentioned is totally untrue.

Washington Post: Even though you have improved cross-strait relations, expanded international participation and signed many agreements, some people are still criticizing you for what is referred to as maitai, or selling out Taiwan. What would your response to that be?

President Ma: From the question you just asked, they say that we are “selling out Taiwan,” saying that we have given up something, but they are unable to say what it is that we have given up.

The DPP leadership regularly criticizes me for “selling out Taiwan,” but their local leaders often go to mainland China to market their fruit and promote their cities. Clearly, when they are in power, they realize the importance of cross-strait relations, but when they are in opposition, they start to criticize us. In fact, what is interesting is that in the eight years of the DPP presidency from 2000 to 2008 Taiwan’s investment in and trade volume with mainland China grew most rapidly. For example, when the DPP was in power, our exports to mainland China and Hong Kong grew from 24 percent of total exports to 40 percent. After we came to power, from 2008 to 2012, this percentage not only did not increase, it actually dropped a bit. Why? Our trade volume with mainland China has increased, but its proportion of total trade has not. So where is the growth in Taiwan’s trade volume? It is due to an increase in our trade volume with other countries, especially in Southeast Asia. This is an important approach we hope to use, to diversify our markets and balance our trade. So, even though our reliance on trade with mainland China is not slight, it has not grown. Quite the reverse, we have diversified our export markets. Isn’t that the goal we have been pursuing?

DPP county magistrates and city mayors wanted to initiate direct flights with mainland China. During the DPP’s eight years in power, they talked about wanting to implement direct cross-strait flights, but could never accomplish it. After we came to power, it was achieved in just over a month’s time. I took office on May 20 and attained it on July 4. Those same counties and cities sought to set up direct flights with the mainland, since once they were set up, it would bring mainland tourists and increase bilateral trade. Clearly, what we have been doing these past five years is correct, it’s just that they want it, but don’t dare say so. Or one could say that their central leadership doesn’t dare say it, but their local leaders do.

Washington Post: Some people believe that US support for Taiwan, especially in the face of growing Chinese power, has lessened in tangible ways. What are your thoughts on that relationship and what is your strategy for Taiwan if US support for Taiwan continues to weaken?

President Ma: As you have just mentioned, a few US scholars have suggested that the United States give up on or reduce aid to Taiwan. However, this has never been the mainstream opinion of US academia, and even less so, the attitude of the US government. In fact, the US government’s cooperation with the Republic of China in the areas of economy and security has only strengthened, not weakened. Why is that? It is clear that the United States seeks to return to Asia, to rebalance to Asia, where the Republic of China plays a very important role.

Our cooperation with the United States is apparent to all in the economic and security domains. But we are also engaged in other areas, such as counter-terrorism, prevention of nuclear proliferation and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, and the combat against human trafficking. Taiwan maintains very close cooperation with the United States and our performance has been outstanding, which has gained a high level of US affirmation. Our bilateral relationship is one of multi-faceted cooperation and is proceeding very well. Our relations with the United States are closer now than prior to the severance of our diplomatic ties in 1979.

Washington Post: Do you think US arms sales to Taiwan are an accurate measure of Taiwan-US relations?

President Ma: Of course. In the past five years, the US administration has submitted to Congress plans for three arms sales to Taiwan valued at a total of US$18.3 billion, the highest in two decades. You asked why these are necessary. The Republic of China is a sovereign nation and we must maintain an effective national defense. As Taiwan is unable to produce some of the weapons it needs for defensive purposes, it has to purchase them from the United States. The United States, because of its Asian policy, wishes to cooperate with Taiwan in this area. Therefore, our bilateral relationship is a mutually beneficial one. These are arms sales to Taiwan, not military aid. These are purchases, not gifts. This is very important to both sides. This is why former US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said two years ago that Taiwan is an “important security and economic partner” of the United States.

Washington Post: Is there need for more arms sales to Taiwan?

President Ma: The earliest request for the recent three arms sales to Taiwan was made 10 years ago. The arms will continue to arrive and be put into service. For example, the first P-3C anti-submarine reconnaissance aircraft has already arrived, with another three to be delivered at the end of the year. These are very important weapons for anti-submarine warfare, and will enable Taiwan to join the United States and other countries in regional defense efforts. There are some weapons that we wish to buy, but which we are unable to procure at the present time. Submarines are an example. We can manufacture some of the defensive weapons we need, but others need to be purchased from the United States. To us, they are vital for maintaining effective deterrence in national defense.

Washington Post: What is your view on your low approval ratings?

President Ma: I think this has a lot to do with some of the reforms we have been promoting in recent years, for example the reasonable pricing of electricity and gasoline. In the past, our electricity and gasoline prices did not accurately reflect importation costs, and this situation could no longer continue. We therefore had to make some difficult decisions. Following more than a year of effort, electricity and gasoline prices have gradually become more reasonable.

Of course, there have also been several other policies that have caused controversy, including pension reforms and the US beef issue. Sometimes, however, things that need to be done can no longer wait. This affects our approval ratings, but I believe that, even though these measures may not be very popular for a certain period of time, they will benefit the long-term development of Taiwan.

Taiwan is a country that relies on imports for 98 percent of its energy needs. We cannot use the government’s budget to subsidize people that use relatively large amounts of electricity and oil. This is not in line with the user-pay principle, and affects the efficiency of energy use. We know that some of these decisions are not popular, but for the long-term development of Taiwan we sometimes have to accept people’s dissatisfaction.

However, our approach to these issues has improved, so as to minimize the impact on people’s lives. For example, the recent increase in electricity prices has been much more moderate than last year. Of course, we have learned some lessons in this process. I believe that, if we gradually continue on this path, the situation can be improved.

Before we raised electricity prices in April of last year, they were even lower than they were in 1982. This could no longer go on.

Washington Post: With regard to the recent conflict between you and Wang Jin-pyng, the Speaker of the Legislative Yuan, as well as the differences within the KMT, how do you plan to lead the KMT in the coming three years?

President Ma: This is related to the controversy surrounding the recent judicial influence peddling case. At a very early stage, we said that political affairs must continue as normal while we proceed with relevant court cases. As for the differences within the KMT, during the recent no-confidence vote initiated by the DPP, the KMT showed great unity.

Washington Post: Could you say what it means to you to be Taiwanese? Is there a relationship between Taiwan independence and Taiwan identity?

President Ma: The issues you just mentioned were more pertinent 20 or 30 years ago. In recent years, however, these questions have become much less relevant, as everyone in Taiwan upholds the principles of “no unification, no independence, and no use of force,” as well as the ROC Constitution.

We all know that the Republic of China is our country and Taiwan is our homeland. The number of people holding this view continues to grow. Furthermore, in the past people did not show the enthusiasm toward the ROC national flag they do today. Now, during international baseball games we always see our national flag, and everyone cheers on the national team. There is no controversy over this. From this we can see that our citizens’ sense of national identity is growing. Even though some people still hold different views, these views no longer represent the mainstream of our society. Nevertheless, we are a democratic country, and we still have to respect the fact that some people hold different views.

Washington Post: What do you think your legacy will be for Taiwan?

President Ma: Most people, when talking about this question, will mention my performance with regard to cross-strait and international relations. A peaceful Taiwan Strait and a friendly international environment have been two of my main goals. I have worked hard to reach these goals, and I have achieved more results than in the past. However, in terms of domestic reforms, we have promoted many policies that will have a profound impact on Taiwan and will affect all of our citizens, such as the reasonable pricing of gasoline and electricity.

As for our social welfare system, we have amended the Public Assistance Act, increasing the number of people from low-income households that receive assistance from 260,000 to 650,000. We have also promoted reform of the national pension and labor pension systems. In addition, young parents can apply for maternity or paternity leave, allowing them to take six months of leave a year before their child reaches the age of two. During these six months, parents still receive 60 percent of their salaries, giving them the time and money to take care of their newborn children. This policy, which we did not have in the past, has been very popular.

Meanwhile, in terms of saving energy and reducing carbon dioxide emissions, we have reversed the past trend of continuously increasing carbon emissions in Taiwan. Now, emissions have been reduced to 2005 levels. More importantly, the efficiency of our energy use has greatly improved. We have set very clear goals: We aim to reduce emissions to 2005 levels by 2020, and to 2000 levels by 2025. Even though these are very ambitious targets that require a lot of effort, we continue to proceed in this direction.

Earlier, we spent quite some time talking about cross-strait and international relations, areas in which we have made significant progress compared to the past. Our ties with the United States, Japan and mainland China are the best they have been for 30, 40 and 60 years, respectively. By creating peaceful cross-strait relations for the people of Taiwan, as well as a friendly international environment, many issues will no longer be a problem moving forward, or at least will be greatly mitigated. This is very important. These are goals I set for myself when assuming office five years ago, and over the past few years we have moved closer to reaching them.

With regard to domestic reforms, we have attached great importance to justice and fairness, and have therefore spared no effort in fighting corruption and promoting a clean government. Even cases in which our fellow KMT members violate the law are treated very seriously, and we hope to create a clean and competent government. We have already achieved some concrete results in this area.

Over the past few years, we have also promoted the second-generation National Health Insurance (NHI). The NHI is a social insurance program that we are very proud of in Taiwan. Similar to other measures, at first some people may not have approved of this program, but now it has proven to be very stable, and the NHI will not experience any financial problems before 2016.

The crime rate in Taiwan has also continued to fall, while our success in solving criminal cases has increased. In fact, social order is now the best it has been for 17 years. Meanwhile, in 2006, 727 people in Taiwan were killed as a result of drunken driving, but in 2013 we actually have a chance to reduce this number to below 260. We have been working very hard on this issue, not only at the central government level. Local governments have also done their part in coordination with the central government. For many people, statistics with regard to people being killed may only be numbers, but each person killed in these incidents represents a broken family. These are all very important reforms.

As for economic development, from 2008 to 2012 Taiwan’s average economic growth rate was 3 percent, ranking second among the Four Asian Tigers behind Singapore. In that same period, the global economy grew at an average rate of 1.9 percent. In the first half of this year, our economic growth reached 2.06 percent, again second among the Four Asian Tigers. In addition, in the IMD’s World Competitiveness Yearbook, for four straight years we have been ranked in the top 10 among the 58 countries surveyed, as well as third among Asian countries, outstripping our past performance. Indeed, we have made significant progress in many areas. Of course, not every citizen will understand this, but we have done what needed to be done, and we will continue to push these reforms until they are completed.

總統接受「華盛頓郵報」（The Washington Post）專訪

馬英九總統10月24日接受美國「華盛頓郵報」（The Washington Post）專訪，針對兩岸關係、臺美關係、美國對臺軍售及執政政績等議題回應媒體提問。

　　專訪內容如下：

　　問：中國大陸領導人習近平於本月稍早曾提及，兩岸政治分歧問題終歸要逐步解決，不能一代傳一代，您的看法如何？

　　總統：在「亞太經濟合作會議」（APEC）中，大陸領導人習近平先生確實說過，兩岸的分歧不能一代一代傳下去，他的意思可能是希望能夠儘快討論這些政治分歧問題。實際上，從我上任後改善兩岸關係以來，雙方觸及的議題中，有的是政治問題，有的是經濟問題，有的是其它問題。以政治問題而言，可以分成高階與低階，高階的問題好比有關「一個中國」的問題，這點我們在1992年時就已經達成共識，即「一個中國、各自表述」，我們稱為「一中各表」。至於低階問題，在過去五年中，兩岸簽了19項協議，其中有一些也是政治敏感性很高的協議，譬如說2009年所簽訂的《兩岸共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議》，該協議涉及雙方的公權力及管轄權，當然具有相當高的政治敏感性，而且到現在為止4年來，運作得非常好。也就是說，協議性質有政治敏感性，但是協議本身是中性的，雙方根據這項協議共逮捕了五千多名罪犯，就是一個例子。

　　我們正在與大陸洽談的兩岸兩會互設機構的協議也一樣，兩岸互設機構的議題具有高度政治敏感性，但是機構本身倒是中性的。因此我們並沒有刻意不去碰政治問題，我們的原則是「先急後緩、先易後難、先經後政」，我們並不是只談經濟問題，不碰政治問題，當時機成熟了，有迫切性了，我們也可以提前討論。不過到目前為止，我們覺得應該先解決像兩岸互設機構這樣的問題，因為這可以為我們在大陸旅行、經商及讀書的民眾，提供更多的服務與協助，我們並沒有迴避這些問題。

　　問：兩岸有可能在您的世代（your generation）進行政治對話嗎？

　　總統：關於大陸方面希望與我們討論和平協議的問題，臺灣民眾會有一點擔心，擔心會不會變成討論統一的問題，所以兩年前我們提出來的時候就說，最好是經過一次公民投票，確定大家支持這樣做，才比較容易展開相關討論。當然，大陸過去也提過希望與我方討論軍事互信機制（mutual military confidence-building measures）的議題，這同樣具有敏感性，目前在臺灣內部還沒有取得共識，但是由於兩岸關係不斷地發展，也許到了某些時候，這項議題不再那麼敏感且民眾有共識時，並不是絕對不能討論。

　　同時，我也要說明，我們的兩岸政策是在中華民國憲法架構下，維持兩岸「不統、不獨、不武」的現狀，並且在「九二共識、一中各表」的基礎上，推動兩岸和平發展。事實上，從過去二十多年來，（陸委會）針對該議題所進行的民意調查顯示，將近80％、有時候甚至超過80％的民眾都支持維持「不統、不獨、不武」的現狀，我們認為這其實很接近臺灣的主流民意。

　　問：您提到政治談判需要有足夠的民意支持，您認為兩岸領導人是否有機會會面？在哪些場合？又須具備哪些條件？

　　總統：這個問題最近常常被討論，我們的基本態度是，如果兩岸領導人要會面，一定是在我方國家有需要、人民能支持，同時是在一種對等尊嚴的狀態下才有可能。

　　問：若兩岸領導人會面，您想傳達的訊息是？ 

　　總統：事實上，現在兩岸之間有許多固定的管道可以溝通這些想法，包括陸委會、海基會以及各部會都有這個機會，這與過去很不一樣。我們透過上述這些管道，可以讓中國大陸方面瞭解，因為我們現在有一些很具體的計畫在推動，包括在經濟方面要通過《兩岸服務貿易協議》及《兩岸貨品貿易協議》。另方面就是儘快完成兩岸互設辦事機構的協商，然後我們會通盤檢討《兩岸關係條例》，把有關兩岸關係的法規做更大幅度的放寬，以配合最新情勢的發展。這些工作其實都是兩岸關係的基礎工程，其重要性也非常高，有了這個之後再往前走會比較順利。

　　上述的聯絡管道是官方的，民間的管道更多，經常有各式各樣的討論與論壇就這些議題交換意見，所以兩岸之間，在意見交流方面應該是相當充分的。

　　問：貴國政府會想傳達哪些重要的訊息？

　　總統：經常有這樣的機會。例如在今年4月底，我們舉行「辜汪會談20周年」紀念會，汪道涵先生的兒子也來到臺灣。在會上我很清楚地說明，根據中華民國憲法，我們無論在國內或國外，都不會推動「兩個中國」、「一中一臺」或「臺灣獨立」，這也是憲法所不容許的。同樣地，在今年7月，我競選中國國民黨黨主席連任成功，習近平先生以總書記的身分發函道賀，我也以黨主席的身分回函感謝。我一再強調，我們在過去5年中，實踐了「九二共識」的內涵。像這些場合，我都會重申我們對於兩岸關係的基本看法，一方面表示我們不變的態度，另方面也讓對方充分瞭解我們推動這些工作的基本原則，這些都經常在進行。像這個周末，國民黨的榮譽主席吳伯雄先生要到中國大陸參加「兩岸經貿文化論壇」，出發前他與我交換意見，我也告訴他剛剛提到的許多想法。

　　

　　問：與對岸關係強化後，是否會傷害臺灣主權？

　　總統：您剛描述說，我們與中國大陸改善關係會影響我們國家的獨立自主，這是很大的誤會，因為實際的情況剛好相反。在我上任前，臺灣在國際社會受到相當的限制，走不出去，等到我上任後，推動改善兩岸關係，一個協議接著一個協議簽訂，我們的國際空間也因此逐漸變大。

　　例如在我上任的第二年，臺灣就可以出席「世界衛生組織」（WHO）所舉辦的「世界衛生大會」（WHA），我們的名稱是「中華臺北」，身分是大會的觀察員，剛去的那一年距我們退出聯合國已經38年，現在臺灣已連續參加5年，都沒有受到影響，我們與世界衛生組織的關係愈來愈密切，透過這個組織，我們與其他國家衛生部門的聯繫也愈來愈緊密。

　　參加世界衛生大會的第二年，我們也正式加入《政府採購協定》（GPA），這是在「世界貿易組織」（WTO）之下的協定，讓我們有機會參加41個會員國政府的採購，這也是過去做不到的。

　　同樣地，今年9月我們參加了「國際民航組織」（ICAO）的年會，是臺灣離開這個組織42年之後第一次參加，這與兩岸關係的改善也有相當關連。

　　我剛說的是與多邊關係有關，如果以雙邊關係而言，我們與中國大陸在2010年6月簽訂《兩岸經濟合作架構協議》（ECFA）後，8月份新加坡就表示願意與我國討論簽訂經濟合作協議，現在這個協議已接近完成的階段。2011年，紐西蘭也表達願意與我國簽訂經濟協議，此協議已完成談判，並於今年7月簽訂，預計很快地就會在立法院通過。因為我們與中國大陸簽訂《兩岸經濟合作架構協議》後，有相當多的國家都表示願意與我們在這個領域簽署協議，包括歐洲議會也多次通過決議，支持與我國簽署，目前我們也與一些國家進行洽商。由此可見，我們與中國大陸改善關係，不但沒有限縮臺灣的國際空間，反而擴大，所以你剛剛提及有些人認為我們與中國大陸關係改善後，會限制我們的獨立性與自主性，剛好相反。

　　事實上，我國和日本的關係，亦是如此。在我和中國大陸簽訂《兩岸經濟合作架構協議》之後的一年，日本即與我國簽訂投資協議。日本在臺灣投資已有60年，為什麼從沒有想過要和臺灣簽訂投資協議呢？為什麼突然願意簽訂呢？顯然是因為日本和大陸尚未簽署自由貿易協定（FTA），所以日本透過與我國簽署投資協議，而到臺灣投資後就可以把產品賣到大陸，這對日本而言是非常有利的。像這些例子都顯示出，我一方面與大陸改善關係，同時也改善了我們的國際關係，這兩者過去是衝突的，是惡性循環（vicious cycle）的，但現在已經變成良性循環（virtuous cycle）。我想這點是非常清楚可見的。

　　另方面，在我5年前上任時，給予我國免簽證或落地簽證待遇的國家與地區只有54個，但現在已經增加到134個；這5年下來增加了80個。部分原因也是因為我們改善兩岸關係，促進東亞的和平，使得許多國家感覺到中華民國在國際上是一個「資產」、而非「負債」，因此各國都歡迎我們素質很高的國民到他們國家去參訪。這些事情都是連在一起的，不是相互獨立的。所以你剛剛提及的觀點，完全不是事實。

　　問：您推動改善兩岸關係，即便已有許多國際參與及簽署協定等成果，但仍被部分人士批評為「賣臺」，您對此看法為何？

　　總統：從您剛剛的問題就看得出來，他們說我「賣臺」，說我們失去了什麼東西，但他們一直說不出來我們到底失去了什麼！

　　民進黨經常批評我「賣臺」，但是他們的地方首長都常往大陸跑，去推銷水果、行銷城市，很清楚地，當他們執政時，他們知道兩岸關係是很重要的，但當他們是在野黨時，就開始批評我們。實際上，在民進黨執政的八年，即2000年至2008年，臺灣對大陸的投資及和大陸的貿易量是增加最快的階段，例如民進黨執政時期，我們對大陸和香港的出口總額比例從24％增加到40％，而我們上任後，即2008年至2012年，此40％的比例不但沒有增加，還稍微減少了一點，為什麼呢？我們的（貿易）量是增加了，可是比例卻沒有增加，那臺灣對外貿易量增加在哪裡呢？那是因為我們和其他國家的貿易量增加了，尤其是和東南亞國家，這也是我們希望分散出口市場、平衡貿易量很重要的做法。其實，臺灣對大陸的貿易量依賴儘管不低，但並沒有增加，相反地，我們反而分散了出口市場，這難道不是我們追求的目標嗎？

　　剛提到，民進黨執政的縣市長，他們也非常希望和大陸展開直航，在民進黨執政那八年，他們說要推動兩岸直航，但一直沒有做成，我們上任之後，一個多月就做成了。我在2008年5月20日上任，在7月4日就達到了，後來那些縣市都來爭取開放與大陸的直航，因為直航之後，可以帶來觀光客、增進雙方貿易。可見我們這5年來做得非常正確，只是他們「想要而不敢說」，或者說，他們黨中央不敢說，但地方首長都敢說。

　　問：有人認為，由於中國大陸政經權力不斷崛起，美國對臺灣的支持已大幅下降？您贊成這種說法嗎？臺灣有哪些因應之道？

　　總統：實際上，您剛提及美國有少數幾位學者曾經主張美國要放棄臺灣，或者要減少對臺灣的援助，但這從來就不是美國學界的主流，更不是美國政府的態度。其實美國政府在經濟與安全方面，與中華民國的合作只有越來越多，而非越來越少，為什麼呢？很清楚地，因為美國要重返亞洲，他要在亞洲再平衡，而中華民國在亞洲扮演的角色非常重要。

　　我國與美方的合作，大家看到的是在安全與經濟方面，而在其它方面也有反恐、防止核子擴散、防止具大規模殺傷力武器的擴散，以及防制人口販運等。臺灣與美方的合作都非常密切，而且臺灣表現都很優越，因此得到美方高度肯定，雙方的關係是一個多面向的合作關係，而且運作地相當好。我國與美國的關係可以說要比1979年斷交前還要密切。

　　問：軍售是否可以做為評估臺美關係的標準？

　　總統：當然可以，因為在過去5年中，美國行政部門向國會提出三批軍售臺灣的項目，總金額達到183億美元，這是近20年來最高的數字。您剛剛問為什麼有這個需要，因為中華民國是一個主權國家，我們要維持有效的國防，有一些武器是臺灣沒有辦法製造的，同時這些武器是防禦性的，所以臺灣必須要向美國採購，而美國為了他的亞洲政策，很希望在這些領域與臺灣合作，因此雙方關係是一個互利的關係。現在這些都是軍售，而不是軍援，都是採買的而不是贈送的，這對雙方來講是非常重要的。美國前國務卿柯琳頓在2年前說過「臺灣是美國重要的安全與經濟夥伴」，就是這個道理。

　　問：美國需要更多軍售臺灣嗎？

　　總統：最近這三批軍購的提出時間，最早是10年前，陸續將到位，例如P-3C偵查反潛機已送來第一架，年底將有三架來臺，這些都是我們反潛作戰非常重要的武器，同時也能與美國或其他國家在區域反恐方面連結起來。有些武器我們希望採購，但目前還沒辦法採購到，例如潛艦就是其中之ㄧ，我們所需要的防禦性武器，有部分可以自己製造，有部分則需向美方採購，對我們而言，維持一個具有嚇阻力的國防力量極為重要。

　　問：您如何看待支持率低迷的問題？

　　總統：我想這與我們最近幾年推動的改革有很大的關係，例如油價與電價的合理化，因為過去國內油價與電價都沒有真正反映其進口成本，長期累積下來已無法持續下去，我們必須做出一些痛苦決定，而經過這一年多的努力，油價與電價目前已開始比較穩定地走向合理化之路；當然還是有其它政策引起爭議，例如年金改革及美國牛肉等議題，但有時候我們覺得應該做的事情不能等候，這雖會影響民眾對我們的滿意度，但我個人認為，這些改革也許在某一時段不受人民歡迎，但長期來看對臺灣是有利的。

　　臺灣是個98％能源仰賴進口的國家，我們不能用政府的預算去補貼那些用電、用油較多的人，這完全不符合使用者付費的原則，也扭曲了能源使用的效率。我們知道這些決策不受歡迎，但有時候為了臺灣長遠的未來，我們必須承受民眾的不滿。

　　我們現在的作法比過去更細膩，以減少對民眾生活的衝擊，就像這次電價調漲，就比去年要緩和很多，當然我們也學到一些教訓，我想這樣一步步走下去，情況應該可以獲得改善。

去年四月份電價調漲前，臺灣的電價比1982年還要低，不可能這樣繼續下去。

　　問：有關最近您與立法院長王金平的爭議，以及黨內的分歧，在未來三年內如何繼續領導國民黨？

　　總統：這件事主要是因有關說司法個案的爭議，我們很早就表達政務要照常推動，但相關訴訟仍會進行，我們黨內的爭議從這次民進黨發動的倒閣案來看，還是相當團結的。

　　問：您能說說身為臺灣人對你的意義？臺灣獨立與臺灣認同有關聯嗎？

　　總統：您說的這些問題在過去20、30年前來說比較嚴重，但近年來其嚴重性已大幅降低，因為大家在臺灣都認同「不統、不獨、不武」及中華民國憲法。

　　我們都知道中華民國是我們的國家，臺灣是我們的家園，有這種看法的人越來越多。早年大家對國旗都沒有像現在這樣的熱愛，但現在每次的國際棒球賽都可見到我們的國旗飛舞，大家都為中華隊加油，沒有任何爭議。由此可知，我們國民的認同感一直在提升，儘管仍有部分人士有不同看法，但這些看法不再是社會主流。不過我們是民主國家，有不同看法還是要尊重。

　　問：您認為自己為臺灣留下的政績為何？

　　總統：大部分人談到這個問題時，都會強調我在兩岸關係及國際關係的表現，一個和平的兩岸及友善的國際是我努力的目標，我做得也比過去有更多的成果。但事實上，政府在國內改革方面，也推動許多對臺灣影響深遠的政策，例如油電價格的合理化，這跟每一位國民都有關係。

　　在社會福利方面，我們修改了《社會救助法》，將需要受照顧的低收入戶民眾由原先的26萬人增至65萬人，同時也推動國民年金及勞保年金制度。此外，年輕夫婦可提出申請「育嬰假」，在幼兒滿兩歲前，夫妻一年可分別請假6個月，並在請假期間領取薪水的60%，讓他們有錢與時間養育新生兒，這項福利過去沒有，現在則非常受歡迎。

　　在節能減碳方面，則扭轉了過去臺灣排碳量不斷增加的趨勢，現在的排碳量已回到2005年的水準，最重要的是，我們能源使用效率也大幅提升。我們訂了一個非常明確的目標，希望在2020年將排碳量恢復到2005年的水準，2025年則恢復到2000年的水準，這是一個非常雄心勃勃的主張，也需要非常努力才能達成，但我們仍朝這個方向邁進。

　　剛談了很多兩岸及國際關係的議題，這部分確實與過去相比有很大的進展，我們與美國、日本及中國大陸的關係分別為30年、40年及60年來最好的時刻，我們能夠為臺灣人民創造一個和平的兩岸關係及友善的國際空間，使大家在往前奮鬥的時候不會面臨困難，或者將它的影響降至最低。這非常重要，也是我在5年前上任時即有的清楚目標，並在5年中逐步達成。

針對國內改革，我們非常注意公平正義，因此對於反貪促廉非常地用心，即使黨內同志違法，我們都會嚴格處理，希望建立　一個廉能政府，這部分我們也有一些具體的成果。

　　在過去幾年當中，也推動二代健保制度，「全民健保」是臺灣引以為傲的社會保險，剛開始推動時，一樣有人不滿意，但等到「全民健保」上路後，目前已非常穩健地向前推行，在民國105年之前，都不會發生財務問題。

　　此外，我們的犯罪率不斷下降，破案率則不斷上升，目前是過去17年來治安最好的時候。此外，2006年臺灣酒後駕車死亡人數共有727人，今年則很有可能降至260人以下，這是我們非常努力的成果，不但中央政府努力，地方政府也在我們的要求下努力。也許對很多人而言，死亡人數只是一組數字，但一個人就代表一個破裂的家庭，而這些都是非常重要的改革。

　　在經濟發展方面，自2008年至2012年臺灣經濟成長率約3%，在亞洲四小龍中排名第二，僅次於新加坡，而世界經濟成長率則為1.9%；今年上半年我國經濟成長率為2.06%，也為四小龍的第二名。此外，根據「瑞士洛桑管理學院」（IMD）所公布的《全球競爭力報告》，過去4年來臺灣在58個評鑑國家中平均排名前十名內，亞洲地區排名則平均為第三名，過去我們未有這樣的表現，而目前在各方面都有一些進展，當然不見得每位國民都瞭解，不過我們做該做的事，並堅持到最後一分鐘。